Hemdeep (00:09)
Welcome to Big Ideas in Microscale, the podcast where we explore groundbreaking research happening at the microscale where micro innovations makes a big impact. We're excited to showcase the incredible work being done by our users from around the world who are pushing the boundaries of microfluidics, lab on the chip, organ on a chip and beyond. Through these conversations, we hope to learn from their experiences, uncover their insight and bring their big ideas to wider audience. So whether in a lab, on the go, we're just curious about the future of microtechnology. Join us as we dive into big ideas at Microscale.

Hemdeep (01:00)
Welcome back to Big Ideas at Microscale. Today we have a master's student from McGill University. I think during our preliminary conversations with him, dove deep into sustainable manufacturing. And I think it would be an extremely interesting conversation with him. My name is Hemdeep and my co-host is... Great.

Robin (01:25)
⁓ That's me.

Hemdeep (01:27)
Today we're going to have Alex join us. I'm sure that he'll have a very interesting conversation with us. And I know I've got a ton of questions to ask him as well. Welcome Alex to our little podcast here.

Alexandre (01:41)
Well, thank you for having me here. I'm very happy to be able to come exchange ideas with you all.

Hemdeep (01:47)
Great. I guess we can quickly dive deep into who you are, the lab that you work at, how did you get there, sort of your pathway to where you are now.

Alexandre (01:57)
Excellent. Yeah, absolutely. I'm Alex. I'm from Montreal. I grew up all my life in Montreal. ⁓ I studied chemical engineering at McGill University, my undergrad there, and then ⁓ joined the Solar Microenvironment Lab in 2023. So right after I graduated from my undergrad in chemical engineering, this is a little bit about where I am right now. So the lab is mainly, it's kind of an interesting lab where we have really different projects going all around. So people, for example, working on type 1 diabetes, breast cancer, For example, early query interface with a differentiation of epithelial cells to go too long and really a lot of different things. All of this lab studies the mechanical biology around all the differentiation of those cells. But for me, I'm kind of a different project, I'd say. It came from a project I did in my class with Chris that Chris was teaching, so my supervisor. One of our projects that we had in class was to make this sustainable mycelium composite that I was very intrigued. with since the way he was framing it was if you put, for example, the root-like part of the mushroom on some wood kind of waste byproduct, it would form this material that had the same properties as polystyrene but would be fully biodegradable. And we had to do one of those projects. I was like, this is super interesting to do as part of a class. And when I was looking towards my masters, I was like, this could be a very interesting project since I'm kind of always been towards a little bit more sustainability, especially in the material with chemical engineering. So I pitched in the project. I was like, hey, could that be something that could be interesting for you? I know it's not specifically what you're doing in the lab, but this could be something very interesting. And he was like, yeah, why not? Let's give it a try. And well, here I am now.

Hemdeep (03:42)
But this is one of those unique moments where you take a classroom lesson and you find a possible commercial endeavor and you're solving a solution. Was this your first time that you ever saw that connection between classroom lesson and a real world application?

Alexandre (03:57)
I'd say so. With McGillian, especially in chemical engineering, we're very theoretical. We don't really even see pumps, because everything is very theoretical. So when we are in the lab building those sort of prototypes and devices, I was like, well, this is something that's very interesting. And that's kind of in my values of more sustainability. So was like, OK, this is very, very interesting. I think this could be a very fun thing to see and develop further along.

Robin (04:24)
Is that normal? when you join a lab, for example, from what I understood, the PI is usually the one who kind of assigns projects. But in this case, it's the opposite where you approach Chris Morris yourself and you're like, Hey, I want to do this. And he was nice enough to be like, yeah, let's go for it.

Alexandre (04:40)
So I'd say it kind of depends, as our lab also is quite different. There's really a lot of projects coming. And when I sent him the email, at first, he was like, I really like that it's you who brought the project, because typically that means that students are more motivated. They're not coming just for a PI or just for the overall lab in itself that has a good reputation in all this. They're coming because they are motivated and want to do this. And I think this is kind of, I'd say, a little bit more special, a little bit different in terms of the experience of the masters as well, since I've already also in other labs where It's very, very by the book. really it's very stringent. It's very, we are a lab of this. We're only doing this. And this this aspect that you're going to be looking into whereas for us it's let's take different directions. Like let's take some risks. And that's what I like about this lab as well.

Hemdeep (05:27)
So now in the lab itself, it sounds like if you have a number of disciplines doing their own research, seems to be a lot of collaboration that needs to be ⁓ in place. Does it not? And for your project, obviously you're heading it. Are you reaching out to a number of people within the lab in order to facilitate the work that you do?

Alexandre (05:47)
So I'd say yes, because some of the different aspects, for example, that we've developed either with 3D printing or with different, for example, Agarose mold, this has already been done in our labs. And some people have already worked a little bit. But even though your project is a little different, we are able, well, I'm able to get some of the ideas that have been developed a little bit by others and then use that into my research and take some of this. So really, everyone is collaborating together. Also, sometimes we do see some big. I'd say overlap between, for example, cells, for example, for example, in our case, mycelium. So there's some ideas that are sometimes coming back. And since people, for example, some post-docs, some PhD students that have different experience from different labs and different backgrounds, we're all kind of able to come in together and share ideas, even though some of the projects are kind of different.

Robin (06:37)
Let's talk bit about more your research project specifically. Tell us about micro materials. What are they? Like what its purpose? Just so the audience have a better idea.

Alexandre (06:47)
If I could summarize it a little bit in the big lines. So we're taking the root-like part of the mushroom. So some scientists, they discovered that this could be made. So we take the root-like part of the mushroom called the mycelium. So it's not like the fruit part of the mushroom that you buy at the grocery store, that you put in your soup. It's really the part that is underground. So we take this, and we put it into ⁓ sawdust or ⁓ straw, for example. So this substrate. put it on there and then slowly the mycelium is going to start growing and very fully colonize this substrate to form this kind of brick that has similar properties, especially similar density, but also similar heat insulation properties such that it makes similar properties such as Styrofoam or even polyurethanes, but it degrades in 45 days in your backyard, comparatively to 500 years. for conventional Styrofoam. And the neat part about this is that it's also self-regenerative. So as long as it's alive, we can take a piece of this already colonized mycelium. We take it, and then we put it into our substrate. And then slowly, it's going to restart and start growing back again to fully form this new colonized material. And this is very interesting application, especially for packaging, because Currently, when you receive, for example, packaging, there's always going to be a lot in tons of Styrofoam, which typically will just end up in the waste basically immediately. You receive, for example, a new appliance, or for example, we receive a new fridge in the lab. It with lots and lots and lots of Styrofoam. And then when we receive that, it immediately goes to waste. And this takes approximately 500 years to degrade. But if, for example, we were to replace it with those sort of materials that can be functional replacement for the plastic, well, we can put it into our backyard and basically we degrade in 45 days.

Robin (08:46)
does the process look like for that? Do you just kind of dig a hole in your garden and you just put it in there and then you just dig it back up? That's it. There's nothing else you would have to do. ⁓

Alexandre (08:56)
Yeah, basically you would just, for example, it's fully compostable. You would just put it in your backyard and that basically would be it. It's all made of very natural material, so mushroom and sawdust. So it would degrade. would take the water in, then just the other parts of the soil would just start degrading it.

Hemdeep (09:13)
And the psyllium itself, does it need to be from a specific type of fungi or do you guys grow it at the lab? How does that work?

Alexandre (09:22)
So in the fungus ring, I'd say, there's a lot of different type of fungus. But we are using one specific branch, which is called the white rod fungi, that's the type of fungi that degrades the wood, for example. That's the ones that you see, for example, with forest, that is going to degrade the wood. And this is what we need. They need to be able to degrade the wood or the stromp. And this is what we need in our case. In our lab, we use Goundermalucidum, which is one of the two main strains that are being used. Otherwise, it's the oyster mushroom as well that we can use as well that can be used. Also typical, well, different strands are going to form a different, I'd say, ⁓ of mushroom as well. So for example, Ganonderma, stem, one that we use, from this very rigid mycelium mat, whereas the other one, the oyster mushroom is going to form kind of this more fluffy type of mat. So even within the white wild mushroom, there's still some differences, but both of them can be used to make this packaging with you.

Hemdeep (10:20)
So you just indicated that there was a link between the type of mushroom that you use and then the actual composite that you connected with. Effectively, your research that you're doing could help people have new ideas of new combinations of mushroom with available raw material, I guess, in this case.

Alexandre (10:38)
I would say my research is not to do combination. My research is more about how can we make those materials faster. So how can we, for example, make those larger scale materials ⁓ faster? But with different type of mushroom strains, we can also do different type of materials as well. So we don't have to stay, for example, with the packaging. This is one very great example. And this is the one that's the most important for me. So this is what I want to try to get to. But also, it can help make larger material for different applications. there's been some development of this type of material for leather-like material. They've made coats that are made of mycelium leather. And now they're trying to do some woven fabric as well with this sort of mycelium material. So this is some very interesting aspect as well that we can start to do some clothing as well from it. But one of our collaborators from UBC, Nicholas Lin, who's a postdoc in the architecture department, they're trying to make those very big scale buildings for mycelium, they developed this toilet that's supposed to replace the chemical toilets made of mushroom. And the very interesting part about this is that when they tried it, they saw that there was not this characteristic smell of chemical toilet, which was a very big surprise. it was very, the mycelium overall material, even though the mycelium is completely dead, so it's just the remaining structure, it did not have the smell of chemical toilets. It was very interesting to see that as well.

Hemdeep (12:01)
Wow.

Robin (12:02)
So the entire toilet was made out of my saliva? I guess... Sorry, I'm just trying to wrap my head around that and what that looks like.

Alexandre (12:11)
Yeah, me too. It's very interesting thing to think about. But yeah, the whole toilet was made of like a substrate that has been colonized by mycelium. So then again, also, I forgot to mention, but when we make those material for packaging, we basically autoclave the mycelium. So we basically pass into the oven to make sure it's fully ⁓ cooked and killed. this way... Growing. Exactly. So it won't grow on your package and likewise, it won't grow on the toilet. So that's some of the different horizons that we can get.

Robin (12:33)
doesn't keep girls

Alexandre (12:40)
with these sort of new materials.

Robin (12:44)
I to some degree it's quite waterproof as well in that case.

Alexandre (12:48)
I'd say yes and no. That's what makes it biodegradable, is that it can take up the water. And the reason why polymers and plastics are not biodegradable is because they're very not waterproof. So in our case, it is not that waterproof, which makes it biodegradable. But in case of the toilet, for example, where it is not that waterproof as well. But in their case, I think it might be waterproof just enough to be able to sustain a long period of time. We need to get more details to see how much it can. withstand. It seems to be good enough to withstand. I think they're doing a demonstration I think in September.

Robin (13:22)
I'm sure they figured it out because I don't think anyone wants a disintegrating toilet while they're ⁓

Alexandre (13:28)
It's in use. Yeah, it won't be instantaneous, but over time, for example, it's totally going to be great.

Robin (13:33)
So degration time was one of the properties that you kind of compare between micro materials and polystyrene. Like what are some of the other properties that you look at?

Alexandre (13:43)
So for us, we're not doing characteristics comparison. In itself, we're really trying to speed up the growing process. But in the different papers that we've seen is, well, the cost is much lower since it's self-regenerative. Also, we don't need a lot of big instrumentation. We don't need a lot of heating. We just basically let it grow. We can have it, for example, in the incubator at 30 degrees. So this also makes it carbon negative or even carbon neutral, even carbon negative. So what I mean by this is typically when we make polymers. Polymers are typically made of oil and the overall process consumes a lot of energy, a lot of electricity and overall emits CO2 in the atmosphere. Whereas here it's a little different where we basically almost capture CO2 to make those material or it's very, very low CO2 emission. So there's a very big difference. That's really one of the big characteristics between this and the overall plastic polymers. But then also the density, the insulation properties, But the main problem that we see and that we are trying to solve right here is the production time. Since plastics, it take like minutes to hours to make. It's very not that long. Whereas for those mycelium polymers, take days to weeks to make. So it really takes a lot of time to be able to make this. And the longer it is, the longer it needs to be on your shelf. And the longer it is that the production time overall. So it costs more money. And there's more risk of contamination. Really our goal is to try to speed up this production.

Robin (15:15)
So let's unpack that. I'm aware there's generally four stages when you're making micro-materials based off our previous conversation. You have the substrate integration and seeding, the mycelium colonizing, removing from the mold, and then the autoclave that you were just talking about where you sterilize and devices are the packaging is ready for use. So looking at that process, which part of it is causing the lengthy production time.

Alexandre (15:46)
Yeah, so it's really colonization of the overall material because the reason why it's very interesting is because we can basically make any packaging out of it. As long as you have the right mold, we put the sawdust into that mold. That will make the packaging that's perfect for a candle, for example, you want to send to somebody else. We're going to put it into this packaging. Then we put our mycelium on top of it. And this doesn't take very long. We make sure everything is sterile. Then we'll let it grow and that's really the long part that we need to take five to 20 days or even longer depending on the substrate that you're using or the quantity of mycelium that you put in. Then it takes a long time to be able to grow. And when it's fully colonized, we just simply take it out of the mold. So overall, the long part is really only the colonization time. So for the mycelium to really be able to fully cover the entirety of the substrate, this is really the long part of it. of the process.

Hemdeep (16:45)
We really appreciate you walking us through that process, Alex. It's really incredible to learn about a new organic material that can be used for sustainable packaging with a bit of time and care. The colonization stage sounds like the true heart of the whole process. Patience and precision really pays off.

Robin (17:03)
I just want to say it's really inspiring to come across research topic like yours that have such a clear real world impact and then as well see the strides that are being made.

Hemdeep (17:15)
And that's a wrap for today's episode of Big Ideas at Microscope.

Robin (17:19)
A huge thank you to Alex LeBlond for taking us inside the world of mycelium and sustainable packaging. Next week, we'll continue our talk with Alex as he breaks down the early stages of his research project, starting with a 2D agar plate setup to explore how to optimize mycelium.

Hemdeep (17:37)
Alex will also share his approach to scaling production, all supported by rapid prototyping with 3D printing.

Robin (17:44)
It's a fascinating look at the spores and the strands behind making sustainable biomaterials practical at scale. Thanks for tuning in to Big Ideas on Microscale. If you enjoyed the episode, make sure to follow us and stay up to date. You can listen on Apple podcasts and Spotify or watch the full video on YouTube. You can also follow us for more updates and behind the scenes content on LinkedIn, Instagram, Blue Sky and X. We're Cadworx3D across the board. That's spelled C-A-D-W-O-R-K-S 3D. For show notes, paper references, and bonus resources on today's topic, visit our website, catworks3d.com. That's spelled C-A-D-W-O-R-K-S 3D.com.

Hemdeep (18:35)
Thank you for tuning in and as always stay curious, keep exploring and never stop asking the big questions that are shaping our world. Whether you're in the lab, on the go or just curious about the future of technology, join us as we continue to dive into big ideas at Microscale.